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Dragon Ball Super's Power Scaling
Topic Started: Sep 19 2017, 12:33 AM (4,455 Views)
+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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Axl
Jan 17 2018, 04:02 AM
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Because it's bad writing...?

I don't believe in good or bad. I find those terms to be profoundly unhelpful in judging a work. They are essentially just code words for ' I liked it ' or ' I didn't like it '. And they tend to be very subjective terms. Now, don't get me wrong. I do have things that I like or dislike. But, if I was amused by something even if it was considered ' bad ' by some people or just had some ' bad ' aspects to it, so what? I don't really need an amazing story or incredible character developments or a consistent framework to be entertained. But, that's just me. So, let's just agree to disagree on this one. And, I understand why you don't like the writing or the inconsistency of Super.

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It's not simply what they can do now, it's what they could have done, No. 17 specifically. He sure would have been useful when Majin Boo was terrorizing the Earth.

Do what? The only thing #17 would do is get his a*** absorbed by buu, based on the facts of how Majin Buu arc was directed.
Good for you...? I have a hard time believing you don't think there's no such thing as bad writing. It's not a simple case of I like or didn't like it. I have standards I base my criticism on. My standard here is try to avoid inconsistencies the best you can for the sake of maintaining immersion. It can't always be done, but in this case there really wasn't a reason to make No. 17 and Gohan as strong as they are. Yes, it is indeed subjective, but subjectivity isn't measured solely by tastes. Again, I have standards, it's not as simple as rejection of an aesthetic or sound. I'm not asking for some amazing story with incredible character developments, I'm asking for a basic level of consistency. Without that, I don't have much of a reason to be invested in any of this.

Not if he's stronger than a Super Saiyan God here. You think No. 17 went from weaker than Imperfect Cell to weaker than Majin Boo in 7 years, and stronger than Super Saiyan God in another 5 or 6? It stretches credulity.
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Axl
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Quote:
 
Good for you...? I have a hard time believing you don't think there's no such thing as bad writing. It's not a simple case of I like or didn't like it. I have standards I base my criticism on. My standard here is try to avoid inconsistencies the best you can for the sake of maintaining immersion. It can't always be done, but in this case there really wasn't a reason to make No. 17 and Gohan as strong as they are. Yes, it is indeed subjective, but subjectivity isn't measured solely by tastes. Again, I have standards, it's not as simple as rejection of an aesthetic or sound. I'm not asking for some amazing story with incredible character developments, I'm asking for a basic level of consistency. Without that, I don't have much of a reason to be invested in any of this.

Yes, by no means should you invest in something that doesn't satisfy your base standards, bro. But, you have to realize that everybody has different levels of base standards. And each person sets and defines his or her own base standards based on his feelings, tastes and beliefs.

Quote:
 
Not if he's stronger than a Super Saiyan God here. You think No. 17 went from weaker than Imperfect Cell to weaker than Majin Boo in 7 years, and stronger than Super Saiyan God in another 5 or 6? It stretches credulity.

Maybe? Didn't Freiza make a huge jump in 4 months? Anything is possible in a fictional world bruh. 17 is also not your average human. Maybe he was already SSJ3 Goku(Buu Arc) tier in the Majin Buu arc but just didn't know or care about Buu? Heck, he was even nonchalant with the fact that their universe might be erased when Goku asked him to participate. Anyways who really knows? I personally don't care because like I said before he along with others are probably just going to fade away into obscurity or just won't matter to the story anymore after this arc.


Axl Reviews:The Casual Version
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Kblo247
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17 said he didn’t care about dying because he and his family would be erased together anyhow when told about the stakes. He’s been kidnapped, tortured and turned to a cyborg. He got swallowed whole by a bug he never met before. He got killed when the planet blew up most likely by Buu. Hell he died when Frieza blew it up too. He may very well see it as well s*** happens and we all die together, I can live with it. He only fights because he owes Krillin a favor in both the anime and manga, which he states, and he wants a yacht.

Maybe he gave zero fs about Buu and dying
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Kblo247
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Gohan and 17 are relative too when compared to Goku. Gohan has doing worse than ssj Goku did vs Toppo. 17 is behind what blue Goku did right now himself vs suppressed Toppo. I mean right now the only sure fired one who has shown an amazing strength feat is 17 with using his barrier to punch Aniraza.

Gohan may have a showing that places him higher than we think vs Dyspo but right now I see at best a RoF blue level guy in Gohan and Champa tourney guy in 17
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Kblo247
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Pyrus
Jan 16 2018, 10:26 PM
Tenshinhan has been training pupils at his dojo with Chaozu, so I can see his strength increasing marginally from that, but nowhere on the same level as when he was training seriously in the mountains in Z. He got bested by a retired Roshi, so he couldn't have been leagues above his Boo arc self.

I don't take that one writer's Twitter comment seriously either, the one admitting Yarin's (or whoever) magic made Roshi stronger. He probably folded under the pressure of the Tenshinhan fanboys.
Tien is he one guy who throughout this whole arc has not had one guy praise him for his tactics, sideline knowledge, or power. Krillin was praises to they got pissed at him when he was showing off to be eliminated, but even then Shin and Beerus listen to everything he says about Goku. Roshi was praised for his tactics by the others in the recruitment and by Beerus, he even got vegetas respect. Tien has just been there and took one guy out with himself .


No one has given Tien in this whole arc or the recruitment the wow Tien is strong or smart line, even his lil buddy hasn’t. Krillin got praised by Goku, Gohan, and even Beerus when he was winning; he even gets mentioned as the motivation for 18 and Roshi. Piccolo got praise from Goku by trusting him to whip gohan in shape, Gohan himself when he wondered how he got so strong, and the U6 Namek with the finishing line. Roshi got praised by Beerus of all people and Goku says that was all Roshis own power. Gohan has been praised by Goku, for a smirk from Vegeta, cheered by Zeno, and Beerus stopped calling him kid. 18 got a round of praise when she came to the tanks and by Goku multiple times when he saved her. 17 has gotten praise throughout. Frieza is Frieza so he praised himself. Goku and Vegeta are themselves and it’s their show lol.

I just personally don’t even see a marginal gain for tien in power or skill. He was never recruited at all in the anime. Roshi happened to be there and he was added for 10 people when they thought Buu was in. In fact Tien has the distinction of not even being a first choice as Shin was sent to find a tenth guy when it was ruled that Monaka, Goten, and a Trunks wouldn’t enter. We can as far as to say had Yamcha not been stupid and flew off and volunteered that he may have got Tiens spot
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superperfectnerd
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Power progression is fine and I want the characters to be relevant, I just wish an explanation was made for their power, I really don't think it would be that difficult to make it work.

What we were presented with in BOG is a godly form outside of even conceived notions of possibility for Goku but what we've been presented with since completely undermines that power up and makes the gains by other characters seem absolutely ridiculous and it does break my immersion.

It's the 7 years after Cell that particularly make little sense, Goku and Vegeta barely even managed to double their power in 7 years and Piccolo was implied to be weaker than Dabra and Supreme Kai and even a rusty base Gohan in many people's eyes (which makes no sense to me as it'd mean Piccolo was weaker than base Gohan at the Cell Games too)

Why even bother with angel training for Goku and Vegeta? Nobody else's methods for progression matter to the writers, why not just say "Goku and Vegeta trained off screen and they became god tier". Why bother to make them have a new teacher and new methods if everyone else can just train on Earth and get thousands of times stronger than they have ever managed before?

It undermines progression of Z because everything they did back then was worthless in comparison to whatever they've been doing off screen in Super.

My logic for 17 is that he and 18 have only begun to train after Goku lost to Beerus, this is when everyone realised (except for the hybrid saiyans) that they can't rely on Goku to save them anymore, only Beerus casually changing his mind appeared to have saved them. 17 could have heard about Beerus' attack through 18 or just sensed the battle, he can clearly sense things now. Super Boo fired a human extinction attack, so 17 would have noticed that, there's no reason for him not to confront Boo if he's strong enough to take him down.

The idea of these powerups are kind of damaging even if they can be explained though. Goku achieving legendary status as a ssj and undergoing an ancient alien prophecy managed to bring him to the level of a... Freeza who had never trained once in his life. Goku let him go 100% and was all "haha Freeza, everything you have isn't enough to beat me!" Yeah... everything he had from sitting on his arse and never bothering to try was almost too much for Goku's effort and training. Plus Freeza even being scared of the sayans and still knowing about Boo and Beerus but never bothering to try and ascend to new heights to get out of Beerus' hold over him.

17 could have just trained for a little while and Boo wouldn't have been a problem. Heck if Piccolo had trained in whatver way he has in Super for those 7 years then he should have blinked Boo out of existence too. The point was at the end of Z and in those 7 years their potential and their regular methods of training were no longer as effective. Goku and Vegeta got new transformations but their base power after 7 years was still relative to Gohan's against Cell and yet Krillin can put that to shame now? Even Roshi? And the explanation is... heavy suit... magical forest that has always been there and Roshi was aware of but only now bothered to send Krillin. Why is nobody else going to this forest? Sparring with 18 could lead to massive gains if she wants to train like never before but then Goku really missed a trick by never trying that before.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Jan 17 2018, 01:11 PM.
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Whatusaiyan
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4 get tmrw 2 rmbr ystrday x.x

Once the universal tournament comes into place, power placing is a task and a half at hand.
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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Eh, the only ones that matter are the ones that can be compared to characters from Universe 7, which narrows things down quite a bit. Everything else is pure guess work.
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Jan 18 2018, 03:25 AM.
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superperfectnerd
Jan 17 2018, 01:07 PM
Power progression is fine and I want the characters to be relevant, I just wish an explanation was made for their power, I really don't think it would be that difficult to make it work.

What we were presented with in BOG is a godly form outside of even conceived notions of possibility for Goku but what we've been presented with since completely undermines that power up and makes the gains by other characters seem absolutely ridiculous and it does break my immersion.

It's the 7 years after Cell that particularly make little sense, Goku and Vegeta barely even managed to double their power in 7 years and Piccolo was implied to be weaker than Dabra and Supreme Kai and even a rusty base Gohan in many people's eyes (which makes no sense to me as it'd mean Piccolo was weaker than base Gohan at the Cell Games too)

Why even bother with angel training for Goku and Vegeta? Nobody else's methods for progression matter to the writers, why not just say "Goku and Vegeta trained off screen and they became god tier". Why bother to make them have a new teacher and new methods if everyone else can just train on Earth and get thousands of times stronger than they have ever managed before?

It undermines progression of Z because everything they did back then was worthless in comparison to whatever they've been doing off screen in Super.

My logic for 17 is that he and 18 have only begun to train after Goku lost to Beerus, this is when everyone realised (except for the hybrid saiyans) that they can't rely on Goku to save them anymore, only Beerus casually changing his mind appeared to have saved them. 17 could have heard about Beerus' attack through 18 or just sensed the battle, he can clearly sense things now. Super Boo fired a human extinction attack, so 17 would have noticed that, there's no reason for him not to confront Boo if he's strong enough to take him down.

The idea of these powerups are kind of damaging even if they can be explained though. Goku achieving legendary status as a ssj and undergoing an ancient alien prophecy managed to bring him to the level of a... Freeza who had never trained once in his life. Goku let him go 100% and was all "haha Freeza, everything you have isn't enough to beat me!" Yeah... everything he had from sitting on his arse and never bothering to try was almost too much for Goku's effort and training. Plus Freeza even being scared of the sayans and still knowing about Boo and Beerus but never bothering to try and ascend to new heights to get out of Beerus' hold over him.

17 could have just trained for a little while and Boo wouldn't have been a problem. Heck if Piccolo had trained in whatver way he has in Super for those 7 years then he should have blinked Boo out of existence too. The point was at the end of Z and in those 7 years their potential and their regular methods of training were no longer as effective. Goku and Vegeta got new transformations but their base power after 7 years was still relative to Gohan's against Cell and yet Krillin can put that to shame now? Even Roshi? And the explanation is... heavy suit... magical forest that has always been there and Roshi was aware of but only now bothered to send Krillin. Why is nobody else going to this forest? Sparring with 18 could lead to massive gains if she wants to train like never before but then Goku really missed a trick by never trying that before.
You can argue Goku didn’t double his strength. Vegeta however easily did. Goku was weaker than Goku by a good gap before ssj2. Gohan thought he was playing and Gohan took Hits from Cell with no damage while not wanting to fight. You can argue that Gohan is at least 30% stronger than him if not more before he ascends. Then you have Vegeta who is weaker than Goku to a point that he’s in his feelings as Goku said “I’m far above you”. Vegeta gets to a level pre Majin where he thinks he can win and beat Gohan.

As for 18 it’s arguable with her. We see she trains with Krillin for the budokai and she in kai at least dates better than Gohan did vs SSJ Goten. Gohan was pushed back. 18 however can’t be touched by ssj Goten and Trunks attacking her in tandem outside the costume when she sees them coming. That point and filler wasn’t removed from kai which super follows after. So she showed a quick month improvement. Then we have her saying at RoF definitively that she is “stronger than you guys” when she offers to fight and Krillin says no we have Buu, then freaks when there is no Buu and just Gohan and Piccolo. So it’s arguable Buu is greater than Gohan and 18 greater than Piccolo right then. Then we have Roshi saying if she goes to the forest she can save Goku and Krillin outright. And we have the neighbors saying her and Krillin fight all the time in the lawn. Plus all the Marron being aware of power stuff and being able to follow fights now. She seems to not need much time to get ready, but just like 17 she has no attachment to fighting for just pure fighting as opposed to money and her family.

17 I truly don’t know. The way he is presented, he really could have been just working out and then said screw it, I don’t care if they kill me. He said no big deal about being erased so it’s possible. I mean he seems like he’s at a f*** it that’s life and how the ball rolls type.

I agree with you about Roshi totally, but it fits to a defeee with him. He didn’t tell the others about Korin or Kami when they could have gained power. He wasn’t invited by Kami so can’t blame him there with the saiyans actually. Now he seems to be the one who got inspired by Beerus.

I find it weird that Dende and Yamcha haven’t gotten power boosts. I mean Puar can even hold a transformation now

Edited by Kblo247, Jan 18 2018, 03:37 AM.
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